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Le témoignage de Wilson McGregor a constitué un élément de preuve important dans la condamnation de Coffin. McGregor avait déclaré devant le jury de Percé qu’il avait vu « the muzzle of a gun », le canon d’un fusil, dans la camionnette que Coffin conduisait au sortir de la forêt en juin 1953.
En 1955, après le rejet de l’appel de la cause de Coffin, on s’est appliqué à trouver d’autres moyens de se porter à la défense de Coffin. C’est ainsi que McGregor a contredit le témoignage qu’il avait rendu devant le jury de Percé. À ce propos, je reproduis le témoignage que Rhoda, la sœur de Coffin, a rendu devant la Commission Brossard.
Cliquez sur les images ci-dessus pour lire deux versions de la déclaration de McGregor.
Wilson McGregor’s testimony was an important element of proof in Coffin’s condemnation. McGregor had declared before the Percé jury that he had seen “the muzzle of a gun” in the back of the pick-up truck Coffin was driving when he came out of the bush in June 1953.
In 1955, after the appeal of Coffin’s case was turned down, members of his family and friends tried to find other means to help him. So it was that McGregor contradicted the testimony he had given before the Percé jury. In this connection, I reproduce the testimony of Rhoda, Coffin’s sister, before the Brossard Commission.
Click on the above pictures to read two versions of McGregor’s statement.
En 1955, après le rejet de l’appel de la cause de Coffin, on s’est appliqué à trouver d’autres moyens de se porter à la défense de Coffin. C’est ainsi que McGregor a contredit le témoignage qu’il avait rendu devant le jury de Percé. À ce propos, je reproduis le témoignage que Rhoda, la sœur de Coffin, a rendu devant la Commission Brossard.
Cliquez sur les images ci-dessus pour lire deux versions de la déclaration de McGregor.
Wilson McGregor’s testimony was an important element of proof in Coffin’s condemnation. McGregor had declared before the Percé jury that he had seen “the muzzle of a gun” in the back of the pick-up truck Coffin was driving when he came out of the bush in June 1953.
In 1955, after the appeal of Coffin’s case was turned down, members of his family and friends tried to find other means to help him. So it was that McGregor contradicted the testimony he had given before the Percé jury. In this connection, I reproduce the testimony of Rhoda, Coffin’s sister, before the Brossard Commission.
Click on the above pictures to read two versions of McGregor’s statement.
Canada
Province of Québec INQUIRY COMMISSION INTO
District of Gaspé THE COFFIN AFFAIR
PRESENT: THE HONOURABLE ROGER BROSSARD, J.S.C.
On this second (2nd) of June, Anno Domini nineteen hundred and sixty-four (1964), personally came and appeared, at Percé,
RHODA COFFIN STANLEY
Being called as a witness herein, and
WHO, having been duly sworn doth depose and say as follows:
THE SECRETARY OF THE COMMISSION:
Q What is your maiden name, please?
A Rhoda Coffin.
Q Your husband’s name?
A Felix Stanley.
Q Your age?
A Thirty-nine (39)
Q Your occupation?
A Housekeeper
Q Your address?
A York Centre
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
I will ask, My Lord, that during the evidence of Mrs. Stanley, that Weston Eagle and Mrs. McGregor be excluded from the courtroom.
THE COURT:
Will Mr. Eagle…
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission :
Mr. Weston Eagle and Mrs. Wilson McGregor…
THE COURT:
Will you please wait in the other room?
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission :
Q Mrs. Stanley, I understand that you are a relative of the late Wilbert Coffin?
A That’s right, I am a sister.
Q You are his sister?
A That’s right.
Q Now, do you know Mr. Wilson McGregor who was a witness at your brother’s trial, in nineteen fifty-four (1954)?
A Yes, I know him.
Q Did you come to learn, sometime after the trial that, apparently, Mr. McGregor desired or wished to change something in the evidence which he had given at the trial?
A That’s right, I heard that.
Q. You heard that?
A Yes.
Q Could you tell me exactly what you heard?
A Well, I just heard that Mr. McGregor was – he was not quite sure if it was a rifle he had seen or whether it was a piece of iron.
Q You heard that?
A That is what I heard.
Q Could you tell me about how long after the trial you heard about that?
A Now, I could not say, I don’t know how long.
Q Would you say…
A I think it was the following year, but I am not quite sure. I would not have any idea, I am sorry.
Q Now, let us put it this way. Would you have heard about that in the few weeks immediately following the trial or only several months later?
A I don’t know.
Q You don’t know?
A No.
THE COURT:
Q Haven’t you any idea at all?
A No, sir, I haven’t any idea.
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
Q Could you not even tell whether you heard about that in the same year the trial had taken place, or in nineteen fifty-five (1955), the following year?
A No, it was not in nineteen fifty-five (1955)… it must have been either… it must have been in fifty-four (1954).
Q So you heard about that, you say, in the same year as the trial had taken place?
A It must have been after the trial was over.
Q. Of course, but if you say you heard about it in nineteen fifty-four (1954), then it was after the trial?
A That’s right.
Q. But in the same year?
A That’s right.
THE COURT:
Q When you speak about the trial, you mean the trial that took place here in Percé?
A That’s right, sir, yes.
Q Because there were other proceedings that took place during the months following the trial?
A That’s right.
Q Now, do you recall that attempts were made to obtain from the Federal Government or the Minister of Justice, a new trial or a change of the sentence? Do you remember that?
A Yes, I remember that, sir.
Q Now, in terms of the period when these attempts were made when exactly did you say that you heard about McGregor or Mr. McGregor having some doubts as to what he had seen?
A Well, I cannot remember the date, sir. I do not remember the year.
Q I am not asking you for a specific date, but would you have heard about Mr. McGregor having such doubts around the time that attempts were being made to obtain a new trial for your brother?
A Possibly, it could have been, yes.
Q It could have been around that time?
A It could have been, yes.
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
Q You were just telling me, however, a moment ago, Mrs. Stanley, that you thought that “ you had heard about this change of evidence on the part of Mr. McGregor in the same year as the trial had taken place”.
Is it more possible that it would be in the same year or only at the time when efforts were made in order to secure a new trial or a change of sentence?
A Well, I say, like I did first, I don’t remember what time it was.
Q You don’t remember?
A I don’t remember, no
Q Well…
A I don’t remember the date; I don’t remember what year.
Q Not even what year?
A No, I could not even swear positively what year.
Q But it was at a given moment that you heard that. Could you tell us from whom you heard that?
A No, sir, I could not tell you from whom I heard it.
Q. Could you tell us where you heard about that?
A I think it was at my own house, in York Centre, where I heard it.
Q Then, would you have heard that from any of your relatives?
A I must have been some of the family talking it over.
Q Could you give us any idea who brought – or broke the news first at home?
A Well, I believe that first I heard of it was my brother Donald, my brother Leslie and my brother-in-law, Mr. Eagle, talking it over.
Q They would have talked the thing over before you, yourself, had learnt about it.
You learned from them, is that the point?
A Yes, As far as I know, that is the ones I heard it from
A And you had not heard at all about this thing before your brothers brought the news home?
A I heard no rumours outside the house.
Q Now, are you aware of steps being taken at some time, in order to try to obtain a change of sentence, or a new trial for your brother?
A That’s right, yes.
Q You are aware of that?
A Yes.
Q Would you remember at about what time those steps were being taken? Was that in the same year as the trial or in the following year?
A I believe after the trial, they started working immediately on an appeal.
Q Yes…
A But, when it came up at the Court, I don’t know.
Q You don’t know?
A No.
Q Now, in any event, when you heard about those rumours, as you put it … and let us say those were rumours …was that at the time when efforts were made to obtain a new trial for your brother?
A Possibly, because we were trying to do all we could to help him naturally.
Q Well, then, what happened then, when your brothers and your brother-in-law discussed the thing in front of you at home?
A Well, I don’t remember what the conversation was at all.
Q Did you take part in the conversation?
A Well, no doubt I did.
Q Was any decicion reached as to what should be done in that connection or if anything should be done at all?
A I think at the time it was decided that two of them would go to see Mr. McGregor and ask him if it was true.
Q Was it decided who would go to see Mr. McGregor?
A Yes, my brother Leslie and Weston Eagle.
Q Now, do you know how long after that conversation took place they both left and went to see Mr. McGregor?
A No, I am sorry, I don’t know.
Q Did you come to learn about the result of the steps they were supposed to take in that direction?
A Yes, I saw the statement.
Q You saw the statement?
A That’s right.
Q Is it this statement which has been filed before this Commission as exhibit 123, which I am just showing you right now?
A That’s right, it looks like the same one I saw then.
Q I suppose it must be either your brother or your brother-in-law who brought it back home?
A Yes… I don’t remember which one it was, but it was.
Q And they showed it to you?
A That’s right.
Q Was there any discussion at the time at home about that statement being shown to the members of the family?
A Not that I can recall.
Q Well, would you remember whether it was said who had actually drafted the statement?
A No, I don’t remember.
Q There was nothing mentioned about that? Nothing at all?
A It could have been, but I don’t remember, sir.
Q Before your brother and your brother-in-law went to see Mr. McGregor, at the time you discussed the matter with them, was it discussed what kind of a statement should be obtained from Mr. McGregor and what should be written or embodied in that statement?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q No discussion at all? Now, in any event, when they came back and one of them at least had the statement in his hands and showed it to you, what was it decided to do with the statement?
A You mean what would we do once we had it?
Q. Yes.
A If I am not mistaken I think I, myself, sent it to Mr. Gravel, the lawyer.
THE COURT:
I am sorry, Madam, would you mind talking just a little bit louder.
A I will try to, sir.
Q And turning towards me.
A Yes, sir.
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
Q So, you say that you sent it over to Mr Gravel?
A Yes, sir.
Q Had you, or any members of your family, been in touch with Mr. Gravel before the statement was obtained?
A Well, I believe we had a continual correspondence with Mr. Gravel.
Q But most especially with respect to Mr. McGregor?
A No, I don’t remember, sir, if I wrote and asked him if he wanted me to send him a statement like that or if I just sent it to him and he sent it back saying that “it had to be done before a notary”. I don’t remember which it was.
Q Yes. Do you know whether…
THE COURT:
I am sorry, Mr. Deschênes, I would line to have this last answer read over.
(The following answer is read by the Reporter.)
A “No, I don’t remember, sir, I wrote and asked him if he wanted me to send him a statement like that or if I just sent it to him and he sent it back saying that “it had to be done before a notary”. I don’t remember which it was.”
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
Q In any event, do you know whether Mr. McGregor was called upon to give another statement, either before a notary, as you say, or before a lawyer?
A I don’t remember, but he certainly must have, but I don’t remember anything about it.
Q You were not instrumental in bringing any new statement from Mr. McGregor?
A No, sir.
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
It is your witness.
Me François de B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin family:
Q I understand that you recognize the affidavit produced as exhibit 123, which was exhibited he by Mr. Deschênes?
A That’s right.
Q I mean the exhibit.
A That’s right.
Q And this is dated the third (3rd) of September, nineteen fifty-five (1955)?
A That’s right.
Q Can you remember if, a few days after, you contacted me by correspondence, or by telephone, to the effect that I was not satisfied by the contents which could have been read to me over the phone and I asked to have this made in a more formal way?
THE COURT:
Don’t you think your question is almost an answer and it is extremely suggestive?
Me FRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin family:
My Lord, I will change my question.
THE COURT;
I think it should be changed, yes.
ME FRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin Family:
Q After the third (3rd) of September, nineteen fifty-five (1955), can you remember if it was by telephone or by correspondence, you had with me…
A I cannot remember, sir, because we had a great many telephone conversations and also a great deal of correspondence.
Q But for this, especially this exhibit 123, you cannot say?
A I don’t remember whether it was a letter or whether it was a letter or whether it was a telephone conversation.
Q Do you remember that you have been to Mr. Pidgeon, at Gaspé, concerning another affidavit or statement of Mr. Wilson McGregor, which is produced as exhibit 122 and signed, as you can see, before Mr. Joseph? (Note: Voyez ce document présenté ci-haut. See that document shown above.)
A I don’t think I went to Mr. Pidgeon about that.
THE COURT;
Q You don’t think what?
A I don’t think I went to Mr. Pidgeon with this. I think it was my brother.
Me FRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin Family:
Q You think it was your brother?
A That’s right.
Q You don’t remember for yourself?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know at what time you informed me that McGregor gave you that statement dated September third (3rd), nineteen fifty-five (1955)?
A I don’t remember the date, but it must have been around the same time.
Q About the same time?
A Either that week or the following week.
Q I understand it is the year after the trial. The trial took place in the summer of nineteen fifty-four (1954)
A That’s right.
Q What you read here, what you can read here on exhibit 123, was it only a few weeks or a few months, or more that that, that you heard about that – about what is said by McGregor?
A I don’t remember what time it was after we heard the rumour that we went to see about it, but it could not have been too long.
Q Can you say about the rumour – let us take, to start, the date of the third (3rd) of September, nineteen fifty-five (1955) – did you hear the first time, the rumour, a month before, or six (6) months before, or a year before, or ten (10) days before? Can you give an approximate date to the Royal Commission?
A No, sir, I cannot give an approximate date, I am sorry.
Q But, can you state that it was after the trial, to the President?
A It was after the trial, here, in Percé, yes.
Q Now, at what time did you meet me for the first time?
A The summer of the trial, that was here at Percé.
Q In the summer?
A That’s right.
Q About how many days before the starting of the trial?
A I cannot remember the date, but I know it was on a Sunday.
Q A couple of days before?
A It was two or three days, I think, before the trial.
Q To your knowledge, did any member of your family meet me before?
THE COURT:
“To your knowledge…” what?
Me GRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin family:
Q …any member of you family meet me before?
A No, none of us had ever met you before, not to my knowledge.
Q And during the trial, did you have any communication with any of the defence lawyers?
A Well, how do you mean, sir?
Q Did you contact, you or any member of your family, have any communication with any of the defence lawyers?
A I don’t know how you mean that.
Q During the trial, in July nineteen fifty-four (1954)
A Yes.
Q .. and the first days of August, nineteen fifty-four (1954), did you have any communication with any of the lawyer acting for Wilbert’
A Well, yes
Q With whom?
A Mr. Maher.
Me FRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin family:
That is all, My Lord.
Mr. JACQUES HÉBERT:
Q One question, Mrs. Stanley. To your knowledge, was Mr. McGregor quite willing to give that statement, or if he had been forced in some way?
A He was certainly not forced at all. He was very willing to give it.
THE COURT:
Q How do you know that, Madam?
A Well…
Q On what do you base your statement that “Mr. McGregor was certainly willing to give that statement”?
A …
Q Did you see him sign it? You were not there when it was signed, were you?
A no, sir.
Q Had you spoken to him before it was signed?
A No, sir.
Q So, if you had not spoken to him, it was after the signature of that statement?
A I have never spoken to Mr. McGregor.
Q On what do you base your statement that Mr. McGregor was certainly willing to give that statement and execute it?
A The same as what we base our rumours on, where we had heard it.
Q You are basing it on rumours or on statements that were made to you by your brother and by Mr. Eagle?
A That’s right, sir.
Q And by anyone else?
A No, sir.
Q So, your knowledge of the statement that you have just made is not personal, it is knowledge acquired from statements made to you by others?
A That’s right, sir.
THE COURT:
Will you let me see exhibit 123, please?
(The exhibit is shown to his lordship)
Q Madam, will you please look at this statement which is exhibit 123. Do you remember having seen this statement before it was actually signed? It bears three (3) signatures, I think. (Note: Revoyez ce document ci-haut. Look once more at that document above.)
A That’s right.
Q Is there a signature of Mr. McGregor, Mr. Eagle and your brother?
A That’s right.
Q Do you remember having seen this statement before, without the signatures?
A No, sir.
Q You did not see it before it was signed?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever see any writing bearing the same words that are written on that statement before this statement was actually signed?
A no, sir.
Q Were you at the house when your brother.. it was Donald, I think, who went with Weston Eagle, isn’t, to Mr. McGregor’s house?
A Leslie and Weston Eagle.
Q Were you at the house when they left to go and see Mr. McGregor?
A I don’t know, sir… it may have been the same evening; it may have been a few days later, I don’t remember.
Q Do you remember whether either of them told you what kind of a statement they were proposing to obtain from Mr. McGregor?
A I don’t remember, sir.
Q There is so much noise around the bench that I can hardly hear you at times.
A I am sorry.
THE COUR (To the Stenographer)
What is the answer to the last question?
(The last answer is read by the Reporter)
A “I don’t remember, sir.”
Q Is that the full answer?
A I guess so.
Q Were you at the house when they came back with the statement?
A To the best of my knowledge, I was, sir.
Q Do you remember what they told you?
A No, sir.
Q Did they mention that they were satisfied with the statement they had obtained?
A I don’t remember, Your Honour, what discussion was made on the subject at all.
Q How about your brother and Mr. Eagle, which one of the two would, to your knowledge, have taken the initiative of obtaining that statement from Mr. McGregor?
A I don’t know, sir.
Q Which one of the two, to your knowledge, seemed to be the more interested in obtaining this statement?
A I don’t know, sir.
Q Which one of the two discussed about that statement more than the other?
A Well, they were all discussing it equally, I would say.
Q Which one of the two spoke most about the rumour that came to your knowledge? Was it Mr. Eagle or was it your brother?
A Well, like I said, sir, I think they were speaking equally about it. I do not really know which would be the most interested.
Q Did both of them seem to know as much about these alleged rumours as the other?
A I believe so.
Q Your brother was as much familiar with these alleged rumours as Mr. Eagle, is that what I must understand?
A Well, to my knowledge, they were, yes.
Q The communications which were made with Mr. Gravel, were they made by you or were they made by Mr. Eagle, or were they made by your brother, or one of your brothers?
A I think they were made by myself, Your Honour.
A By Yourself?
A. Yes.
Province of Québec INQUIRY COMMISSION INTO
District of Gaspé THE COFFIN AFFAIR
PRESENT: THE HONOURABLE ROGER BROSSARD, J.S.C.
On this second (2nd) of June, Anno Domini nineteen hundred and sixty-four (1964), personally came and appeared, at Percé,
RHODA COFFIN STANLEY
Being called as a witness herein, and
WHO, having been duly sworn doth depose and say as follows:
THE SECRETARY OF THE COMMISSION:
Q What is your maiden name, please?
A Rhoda Coffin.
Q Your husband’s name?
A Felix Stanley.
Q Your age?
A Thirty-nine (39)
Q Your occupation?
A Housekeeper
Q Your address?
A York Centre
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
I will ask, My Lord, that during the evidence of Mrs. Stanley, that Weston Eagle and Mrs. McGregor be excluded from the courtroom.
THE COURT:
Will Mr. Eagle…
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission :
Mr. Weston Eagle and Mrs. Wilson McGregor…
THE COURT:
Will you please wait in the other room?
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission :
Q Mrs. Stanley, I understand that you are a relative of the late Wilbert Coffin?
A That’s right, I am a sister.
Q You are his sister?
A That’s right.
Q Now, do you know Mr. Wilson McGregor who was a witness at your brother’s trial, in nineteen fifty-four (1954)?
A Yes, I know him.
Q Did you come to learn, sometime after the trial that, apparently, Mr. McGregor desired or wished to change something in the evidence which he had given at the trial?
A That’s right, I heard that.
Q. You heard that?
A Yes.
Q Could you tell me exactly what you heard?
A Well, I just heard that Mr. McGregor was – he was not quite sure if it was a rifle he had seen or whether it was a piece of iron.
Q You heard that?
A That is what I heard.
Q Could you tell me about how long after the trial you heard about that?
A Now, I could not say, I don’t know how long.
Q Would you say…
A I think it was the following year, but I am not quite sure. I would not have any idea, I am sorry.
Q Now, let us put it this way. Would you have heard about that in the few weeks immediately following the trial or only several months later?
A I don’t know.
Q You don’t know?
A No.
THE COURT:
Q Haven’t you any idea at all?
A No, sir, I haven’t any idea.
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
Q Could you not even tell whether you heard about that in the same year the trial had taken place, or in nineteen fifty-five (1955), the following year?
A No, it was not in nineteen fifty-five (1955)… it must have been either… it must have been in fifty-four (1954).
Q So you heard about that, you say, in the same year as the trial had taken place?
A It must have been after the trial was over.
Q. Of course, but if you say you heard about it in nineteen fifty-four (1954), then it was after the trial?
A That’s right.
Q. But in the same year?
A That’s right.
THE COURT:
Q When you speak about the trial, you mean the trial that took place here in Percé?
A That’s right, sir, yes.
Q Because there were other proceedings that took place during the months following the trial?
A That’s right.
Q Now, do you recall that attempts were made to obtain from the Federal Government or the Minister of Justice, a new trial or a change of the sentence? Do you remember that?
A Yes, I remember that, sir.
Q Now, in terms of the period when these attempts were made when exactly did you say that you heard about McGregor or Mr. McGregor having some doubts as to what he had seen?
A Well, I cannot remember the date, sir. I do not remember the year.
Q I am not asking you for a specific date, but would you have heard about Mr. McGregor having such doubts around the time that attempts were being made to obtain a new trial for your brother?
A Possibly, it could have been, yes.
Q It could have been around that time?
A It could have been, yes.
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
Q You were just telling me, however, a moment ago, Mrs. Stanley, that you thought that “ you had heard about this change of evidence on the part of Mr. McGregor in the same year as the trial had taken place”.
Is it more possible that it would be in the same year or only at the time when efforts were made in order to secure a new trial or a change of sentence?
A Well, I say, like I did first, I don’t remember what time it was.
Q You don’t remember?
A I don’t remember, no
Q Well…
A I don’t remember the date; I don’t remember what year.
Q Not even what year?
A No, I could not even swear positively what year.
Q But it was at a given moment that you heard that. Could you tell us from whom you heard that?
A No, sir, I could not tell you from whom I heard it.
Q. Could you tell us where you heard about that?
A I think it was at my own house, in York Centre, where I heard it.
Q Then, would you have heard that from any of your relatives?
A I must have been some of the family talking it over.
Q Could you give us any idea who brought – or broke the news first at home?
A Well, I believe that first I heard of it was my brother Donald, my brother Leslie and my brother-in-law, Mr. Eagle, talking it over.
Q They would have talked the thing over before you, yourself, had learnt about it.
You learned from them, is that the point?
A Yes, As far as I know, that is the ones I heard it from
A And you had not heard at all about this thing before your brothers brought the news home?
A I heard no rumours outside the house.
Q Now, are you aware of steps being taken at some time, in order to try to obtain a change of sentence, or a new trial for your brother?
A That’s right, yes.
Q You are aware of that?
A Yes.
Q Would you remember at about what time those steps were being taken? Was that in the same year as the trial or in the following year?
A I believe after the trial, they started working immediately on an appeal.
Q Yes…
A But, when it came up at the Court, I don’t know.
Q You don’t know?
A No.
Q Now, in any event, when you heard about those rumours, as you put it … and let us say those were rumours …was that at the time when efforts were made to obtain a new trial for your brother?
A Possibly, because we were trying to do all we could to help him naturally.
Q Well, then, what happened then, when your brothers and your brother-in-law discussed the thing in front of you at home?
A Well, I don’t remember what the conversation was at all.
Q Did you take part in the conversation?
A Well, no doubt I did.
Q Was any decicion reached as to what should be done in that connection or if anything should be done at all?
A I think at the time it was decided that two of them would go to see Mr. McGregor and ask him if it was true.
Q Was it decided who would go to see Mr. McGregor?
A Yes, my brother Leslie and Weston Eagle.
Q Now, do you know how long after that conversation took place they both left and went to see Mr. McGregor?
A No, I am sorry, I don’t know.
Q Did you come to learn about the result of the steps they were supposed to take in that direction?
A Yes, I saw the statement.
Q You saw the statement?
A That’s right.
Q Is it this statement which has been filed before this Commission as exhibit 123, which I am just showing you right now?
A That’s right, it looks like the same one I saw then.
Q I suppose it must be either your brother or your brother-in-law who brought it back home?
A Yes… I don’t remember which one it was, but it was.
Q And they showed it to you?
A That’s right.
Q Was there any discussion at the time at home about that statement being shown to the members of the family?
A Not that I can recall.
Q Well, would you remember whether it was said who had actually drafted the statement?
A No, I don’t remember.
Q There was nothing mentioned about that? Nothing at all?
A It could have been, but I don’t remember, sir.
Q Before your brother and your brother-in-law went to see Mr. McGregor, at the time you discussed the matter with them, was it discussed what kind of a statement should be obtained from Mr. McGregor and what should be written or embodied in that statement?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q No discussion at all? Now, in any event, when they came back and one of them at least had the statement in his hands and showed it to you, what was it decided to do with the statement?
A You mean what would we do once we had it?
Q. Yes.
A If I am not mistaken I think I, myself, sent it to Mr. Gravel, the lawyer.
THE COURT:
I am sorry, Madam, would you mind talking just a little bit louder.
A I will try to, sir.
Q And turning towards me.
A Yes, sir.
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
Q So, you say that you sent it over to Mr Gravel?
A Yes, sir.
Q Had you, or any members of your family, been in touch with Mr. Gravel before the statement was obtained?
A Well, I believe we had a continual correspondence with Mr. Gravel.
Q But most especially with respect to Mr. McGregor?
A No, I don’t remember, sir, if I wrote and asked him if he wanted me to send him a statement like that or if I just sent it to him and he sent it back saying that “it had to be done before a notary”. I don’t remember which it was.
Q Yes. Do you know whether…
THE COURT:
I am sorry, Mr. Deschênes, I would line to have this last answer read over.
(The following answer is read by the Reporter.)
A “No, I don’t remember, sir, I wrote and asked him if he wanted me to send him a statement like that or if I just sent it to him and he sent it back saying that “it had to be done before a notary”. I don’t remember which it was.”
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C.,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
Q In any event, do you know whether Mr. McGregor was called upon to give another statement, either before a notary, as you say, or before a lawyer?
A I don’t remember, but he certainly must have, but I don’t remember anything about it.
Q You were not instrumental in bringing any new statement from Mr. McGregor?
A No, sir.
Me JULES DESCHÊNES, Q.C,
Legal Counsel to the Commission:
It is your witness.
Me François de B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin family:
Q I understand that you recognize the affidavit produced as exhibit 123, which was exhibited he by Mr. Deschênes?
A That’s right.
Q I mean the exhibit.
A That’s right.
Q And this is dated the third (3rd) of September, nineteen fifty-five (1955)?
A That’s right.
Q Can you remember if, a few days after, you contacted me by correspondence, or by telephone, to the effect that I was not satisfied by the contents which could have been read to me over the phone and I asked to have this made in a more formal way?
THE COURT:
Don’t you think your question is almost an answer and it is extremely suggestive?
Me FRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin family:
My Lord, I will change my question.
THE COURT;
I think it should be changed, yes.
ME FRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin Family:
Q After the third (3rd) of September, nineteen fifty-five (1955), can you remember if it was by telephone or by correspondence, you had with me…
A I cannot remember, sir, because we had a great many telephone conversations and also a great deal of correspondence.
Q But for this, especially this exhibit 123, you cannot say?
A I don’t remember whether it was a letter or whether it was a letter or whether it was a telephone conversation.
Q Do you remember that you have been to Mr. Pidgeon, at Gaspé, concerning another affidavit or statement of Mr. Wilson McGregor, which is produced as exhibit 122 and signed, as you can see, before Mr. Joseph? (Note: Voyez ce document présenté ci-haut. See that document shown above.)
A I don’t think I went to Mr. Pidgeon about that.
THE COURT;
Q You don’t think what?
A I don’t think I went to Mr. Pidgeon with this. I think it was my brother.
Me FRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin Family:
Q You think it was your brother?
A That’s right.
Q You don’t remember for yourself?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know at what time you informed me that McGregor gave you that statement dated September third (3rd), nineteen fifty-five (1955)?
A I don’t remember the date, but it must have been around the same time.
Q About the same time?
A Either that week or the following week.
Q I understand it is the year after the trial. The trial took place in the summer of nineteen fifty-four (1954)
A That’s right.
Q What you read here, what you can read here on exhibit 123, was it only a few weeks or a few months, or more that that, that you heard about that – about what is said by McGregor?
A I don’t remember what time it was after we heard the rumour that we went to see about it, but it could not have been too long.
Q Can you say about the rumour – let us take, to start, the date of the third (3rd) of September, nineteen fifty-five (1955) – did you hear the first time, the rumour, a month before, or six (6) months before, or a year before, or ten (10) days before? Can you give an approximate date to the Royal Commission?
A No, sir, I cannot give an approximate date, I am sorry.
Q But, can you state that it was after the trial, to the President?
A It was after the trial, here, in Percé, yes.
Q Now, at what time did you meet me for the first time?
A The summer of the trial, that was here at Percé.
Q In the summer?
A That’s right.
Q About how many days before the starting of the trial?
A I cannot remember the date, but I know it was on a Sunday.
Q A couple of days before?
A It was two or three days, I think, before the trial.
Q To your knowledge, did any member of your family meet me before?
THE COURT:
“To your knowledge…” what?
Me GRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin family:
Q …any member of you family meet me before?
A No, none of us had ever met you before, not to my knowledge.
Q And during the trial, did you have any communication with any of the defence lawyers?
A Well, how do you mean, sir?
Q Did you contact, you or any member of your family, have any communication with any of the defence lawyers?
A I don’t know how you mean that.
Q During the trial, in July nineteen fifty-four (1954)
A Yes.
Q .. and the first days of August, nineteen fifty-four (1954), did you have any communication with any of the lawyer acting for Wilbert’
A Well, yes
Q With whom?
A Mr. Maher.
Me FRANCOIS DE B. GRAVEL,
Attorney for the Coffin family:
That is all, My Lord.
Mr. JACQUES HÉBERT:
Q One question, Mrs. Stanley. To your knowledge, was Mr. McGregor quite willing to give that statement, or if he had been forced in some way?
A He was certainly not forced at all. He was very willing to give it.
THE COURT:
Q How do you know that, Madam?
A Well…
Q On what do you base your statement that “Mr. McGregor was certainly willing to give that statement”?
A …
Q Did you see him sign it? You were not there when it was signed, were you?
A no, sir.
Q Had you spoken to him before it was signed?
A No, sir.
Q So, if you had not spoken to him, it was after the signature of that statement?
A I have never spoken to Mr. McGregor.
Q On what do you base your statement that Mr. McGregor was certainly willing to give that statement and execute it?
A The same as what we base our rumours on, where we had heard it.
Q You are basing it on rumours or on statements that were made to you by your brother and by Mr. Eagle?
A That’s right, sir.
Q And by anyone else?
A No, sir.
Q So, your knowledge of the statement that you have just made is not personal, it is knowledge acquired from statements made to you by others?
A That’s right, sir.
THE COURT:
Will you let me see exhibit 123, please?
(The exhibit is shown to his lordship)
Q Madam, will you please look at this statement which is exhibit 123. Do you remember having seen this statement before it was actually signed? It bears three (3) signatures, I think. (Note: Revoyez ce document ci-haut. Look once more at that document above.)
A That’s right.
Q Is there a signature of Mr. McGregor, Mr. Eagle and your brother?
A That’s right.
Q Do you remember having seen this statement before, without the signatures?
A No, sir.
Q You did not see it before it was signed?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever see any writing bearing the same words that are written on that statement before this statement was actually signed?
A no, sir.
Q Were you at the house when your brother.. it was Donald, I think, who went with Weston Eagle, isn’t, to Mr. McGregor’s house?
A Leslie and Weston Eagle.
Q Were you at the house when they left to go and see Mr. McGregor?
A I don’t know, sir… it may have been the same evening; it may have been a few days later, I don’t remember.
Q Do you remember whether either of them told you what kind of a statement they were proposing to obtain from Mr. McGregor?
A I don’t remember, sir.
Q There is so much noise around the bench that I can hardly hear you at times.
A I am sorry.
THE COUR (To the Stenographer)
What is the answer to the last question?
(The last answer is read by the Reporter)
A “I don’t remember, sir.”
Q Is that the full answer?
A I guess so.
Q Were you at the house when they came back with the statement?
A To the best of my knowledge, I was, sir.
Q Do you remember what they told you?
A No, sir.
Q Did they mention that they were satisfied with the statement they had obtained?
A I don’t remember, Your Honour, what discussion was made on the subject at all.
Q How about your brother and Mr. Eagle, which one of the two would, to your knowledge, have taken the initiative of obtaining that statement from Mr. McGregor?
A I don’t know, sir.
Q Which one of the two, to your knowledge, seemed to be the more interested in obtaining this statement?
A I don’t know, sir.
Q Which one of the two discussed about that statement more than the other?
A Well, they were all discussing it equally, I would say.
Q Which one of the two spoke most about the rumour that came to your knowledge? Was it Mr. Eagle or was it your brother?
A Well, like I said, sir, I think they were speaking equally about it. I do not really know which would be the most interested.
Q Did both of them seem to know as much about these alleged rumours as the other?
A I believe so.
Q Your brother was as much familiar with these alleged rumours as Mr. Eagle, is that what I must understand?
A Well, to my knowledge, they were, yes.
Q The communications which were made with Mr. Gravel, were they made by you or were they made by Mr. Eagle, or were they made by your brother, or one of your brothers?
A I think they were made by myself, Your Honour.
A By Yourself?
A. Yes.
3 commentaires:
"I don't remember, sir."
"I don't know, sir."
She's not very talktative.
everyone knows wilson mcgregor was the town drunk.he diddnt draw many sober breaths, if any. no one ever beleived a word he ever spoke. this is laughable even.
To anonyme above :
everyone knows wilbert coffin was the town drunk.he diddnt draw many sober breaths, if any. no one ever beleived a word he ever spoke. this is laughable even.
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